Realized Worth co-founders Chris Jarvis and Angela Parker recently sat down with Blackbaud‘s Jamie Serino for their Champions of Social Good podcast. In addition to a story about a failed undercover mission, the topics discussed include the usual RW staples such as transformative vs. transactional volunteering, disorienting dilemmas, and intrinsic motivation.

A few highlights:

On Empathy, In-Groups/Out-Groups

“Imagine that you’re sitting down with someone homeless, and find in your conversation with that person that their story is not so different from your own.”

“They weren’t saying to the community ‘we’re going to do something to help you.’ They’re saying ‘we are you.'”

On Measurement

“The biggest metric for us is that individuals who go to a transformative space have an experience and try to bring meaning to the experience, and in that process of sense making, they find that over a period of time there’s a psychological change (the way they think about the world), a convictional change (revisions of their belief system), and a behavioral change (they way they act within the world), and if those things happen, then we can get lasting effect, it’s not just people showing up to put in a couple hours to paint a wall.”

On Disorientation, Transformation, and “The Debrief”

“Once people have experienced that moment of disorientation … where their expectation of what was going to happen is not met, they can be lost in that feeling of shame … the purpose then of the person leading the event is to guide people through the process of transformation.”

There’s more. Listen here:

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